Britain is not dense, lefties

If CF ever finds himself calming down, becoming less enraged, a quick visit to the deluded lefties over at Liberal Conspiracy usually gets the old piss boiling again.

And sure enough, the pile of arse entitled "Not-racists and the ‘England Is Full’ meme" got CF's blood pressure back to hypertension levels in no time.

In it, poor fool John B loftily informs us about the..

".. tactics that opponents of immigration use to portray themselves as motivated by factors other than racism .. another popular one is “we’d love to take more people, but we’re full”.

"An obvious retort to the definitely-not-racist person raising this point is “err, the UK has the 51st highest population density in the world .. This can be suffixed with “, you dolt” if required.

"This is unlikely to convince most not-racist types ... because complex mathematical concepts such as ‘population density’ are, somewhat ironically, beyond them. But in the eyes of an impartial observer, you’ve basically won"

To which nonsense, CF would reply: what a load of specious bollocks. Population density? Who gives a fucking shit?

One commenter actually points out, possibly tongue-in-cheek, that..

".. if Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland all reached England’s population density (without England’s increasing) we could hold a population of 96,605,572?

As society has not fallen apart in England with our circa 1020 head per km2 popualtion density, this is the upper limit for which it is safe to reach and so around 95 million is the safe upper limit we can work with"

But this really is the argument John B is trying to make: 'there's plenty of room left in Britain, so only a racist wouldn't want to share'.

Crap. Who cares whether they've got a whole square kilometre to wander about in, or just a couple of square metres?

CF does care if he can’t get on an overcrowded train, if his kids are in classes of 45, if he can’t get to see a dentist, if he can’t get round the M25 in less than 3 hours, if he can't be treated in A&E inside 3 fucking hours, or he can’t find a policeman when he needs one.

While we might have the physical space to go to 95 million population, or whatever, we certainly don’t have enough of virtually any-fucking-thing else, do we?

And pointing that out makes CF a 'racist' does it? Fuck right off.

What we don't want - what we absolutely do not want - is a deluded bunch of socialists 'investing' a whole load more money in infrastructure and public services, just to support a huge immigration-fueled growth in population.

We're not exactly in Utopia with the current enormous expenditure for the current population, are we?

And as for your sad, sardonic little "not-racists" crap, John B, you can shove that right up your big, presumably white, preposterously liberal arse.



Dippyness. said...

I pointed out to some one that a receptionist needs to have a fluency in English.... Yep I was called a racist! Dhhhhaaaa

Costello said...

Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland have low population densities for a reason. I find it somewhat hard to envision millions of Africans/Latin Americans/Arabs/Asians moving into the Highlands and Islands. Hell i'd be delighted if they did - it's where i'm from - but i don't think it's an accident they tend to find themselves in and around London rather than amongst the plentiful rocks, sheep and rain of north west Scotland.

patently said...

And pointing that out makes CF a 'racist' does it?

Yes, it does. For a very simple reason; that it removes the need to respond to your argument.

If you are a racist, you must be wrong, and you are a racist if they say you are. Ergo, anyone whose argument they cannot rebut, is a racist. (an example of left-wing logic for you...)

Anonymous said...

I'm confused! I AM a racist but I also like museli, how should I vote????

Captain Haddock said...

All of these "Ist" labels are just that .. labels & are best ignored ..

If you disagree with someone else's opinion on immigration .. you're a "Racist" ..

If you disagree with the opinion of a Female (particularly one in any position of authority or power) .. you're a "Misogynist" ..

I've been labelled both in my time & find the best way to deflate these people, who are incapable of reasoned argument, or of conceding that there might be a valid and alternative point of view .. is to simply shrug one's shoulders and walk away ..

It just leaves them standing there alone & looking rather silly ..

Jill said...

Even so, how does one square libertarianism and the prevention of the free movement of people in search of economic success? No right-lib blogger has ever managed to square that one to my satisfaction.

I don't mind people arguing against immigration, but those arguments have to make sense in context to the general thrust of their other arguments/political philosophy.

Or don't they?

Anonymous said...

Jill, you ask, "Even so, how does one square libertarianism and the prevention of the free movement of people in search of economic success?"

Let me have a go. Libertarianism would "welcome" those capable and able immigrants with the wherewithal and the resources to move to the UK and contribute to our economy. Libertarianism wouldn't dole out free accommodation, benefits, and entitlements to attract the world's poor to our shores.

So, immigration might well be free under a libertarian regime, but far fewer immigrants would arrive, and those that did would contribute to our nations wealth rather than consume it.

JuliaM said...

Just checking, but this IS the Jonh B who upped and left for Austrailia, yes?

Thought so. I'll pay as much attention to his utterings on immigration as I do to those of the Berk of Barking, who pontificates on the wonders of diversity from his monocultural new home in Dorset...

Anonymous said...

It should also be pointed out to the dumb fuck that Scotlands Geography last time I looked is not predominately nice lush Flat living space like the midlands and south east of England. Most of the Country is made up of things called MOUNTAINS. Now if the dumb fucker wants build millions of homes on the side of mountains then he is an even dumber fucker then we credit him with being. The clue is in the fact that in reality Scotland hasnt got the population of England for precicely that reason you pseudo intellection arsehole.

Jill said...

JE: ok. Right. So this is the anarcho-capitalist type of libertarianism where possession is all. Fair enough. And since that utopia is so far from reality, the interim authoritarianism in a 'tough' approach to immigration is an unfortunate necessity? Is that how it goes?

All's I'm saying is that we can all justify government intervention or authoritarian exceptions for our pet projects and issues. What do we think New Labour have been doing for the past 13 years? ID cards? Unfortunate necessity. Wholesale suspension of habeas corpus? Unfortunate necessity.

I'm afraid I can't get past immigration as a right-lib shibboleth that really shouldn't be there.

Anonymous said...

Jill, your interpretation of Libertarianism is not one with which I agree. I know we could debate ad nauseam on different strains and factions of libertarianism, just as we can with all -isms, but your use of words like "authoritarian" and "tough approach" to my suggestion of a libertarian immigration regime is a travesty of the very fundamentals of libertarianism.

“Authoritarianism” comes from big government. A “Tough approach” is again something imposed by an all powerful state.

Libertarianism is a system of light government.

The restrictions on the immigration of the poor of the third world entering a libertarian UK would be self imposed by the would be immigrants themselves. Why bother to come to a cold and wet island in the North Atlantic where you would need to feed and clothe yourself and your family from your own resources, and make your own life in your adopted culture using your own resources and your own talents?

The answer might to the above might be, “Yes, I’ve got the resources and the abilities to make a better life for myself in the UK.” That’s fine by me. More often, the answer will be, “No, in the absence of free hand outs and entitlements it would not be worth my while.” That’s fine by me too.

I don’t see much authoritarianism in the above approach.

Jill said...

JE: sorry, my bad. I wasn't being at all clear. What I am talking about is what people are prescribing for NOW, do you see?

I, as a left-leaning person with libertarian views, find these right-libertarian blogs very interesting because if you look at politics in quadrants instead of only left/right halves, there are things in common. But what I always find on these blogs is an attitude towards immigration that is authoritarian. Limit it. We don't have room. Get out of the EU and close the doors. I don't mind people arguing that in the least, but I find it incompatible with a libertarian view.

I understand the situation you describe as ideal from a right libertarian point of view. But this is not what is being argued (sorry, CF, I don't particularly mean this specific post of yours).

Anonymous said...

Jill, a left leaning libertarian. Hmm, interesting, another new -ism?

I'm all for individual interpretations of one's philosophy, and whatever floats your boat can only be a good thing. It's certainly better than some of the ossified libertarianism that I've come across on the net in which all vestiges of pragmatism and common sense are secondary to the creed.

Yes, I agree, libertarianism often appears alongside various contradictory policies such as anti-immigration, but that’s life. We all have our little foibles, and no one is 100% consistent.

Jill said...

I think the crucial difference lies in our various definitions of property! And I think we were around before you lot - although I'm sure you could demolish me on that one, what with my how-to-look-stupid habit of not bothering to source my various pronouncements. Oops!

Well, yes, that's what I said! So if it's understandable that libertarian bloggers can support authoritarian anti-immigration policies, surely that undermines their credibility when criticising other parties' "foibles"? C'est my point.

I don't want CF to shout 'You calling me racist?' as he did the last time I brought this up on here. I just want him (well, not CF in particular, anyone who is supporting authoritarian immigration policies while calling themselves libertarians) to explain how this can be credible, or to concede that it's an outlier policy of necessity due to some perceived overriding and immediate need.

Thanks, John. Off to eat Easter eggs now!

DerekP said...

"the free movement of people in search of economic success"

Sounds like a polite version of Iraq invading Kuwait.

DerekP said...

The phrase "authoritarian anti-immigration policies" is a bit rich when what we have been subjected to for many years is authoritarian pro mass-immigration policies.

Dave H said...

Population density might nottell you much in absolute terms, but relatively it's quite interesting.

(I don't know where his 'ca. 1020'came from)

Officially (/KM²):

England: 383*
India: 349
Japan: 337

On a world scale, England is relatively crowded.

*Based on the 2001 Census. Since 2002 was the year when immigration really took off, I suspect it might have increased a bit since then.

Obnoxio The Clown said...

There is no such thing as a "left-leaning" libertarian. Libertarians are about liberty. "Left-leaning" libertarians consider only "social" liberties, but consider "economic" liberty as undesirable. "Left-leaning" libertarians are just social democrats with a different set of priorities.

You either believe in freedom, or you don't. If you think that the government can spend my money better than I can, then you're not a libertarian.

mungle said...

Whats wrong with them? Why do they want to pack this country to the rafters? Many of them will be the same people who will happily go on some sort of "eco" demonstration or protest?

Do they want their offspring living in some sort of concreted urban nightmare? Perhaps they don't care and the red mist of hatred for the indigenous population doesn't allow them to see the sort of future they are preparing for their offspring.

Antisthenes said...

Any reasonably intelligent person with a modicum of common sense knows that immigration has it's benefits but uncontrolled immigration does not. Look at the Romans they let immigration rip and it did for them and it will do the same for us. I appreciate that was not the only factor but the other factors are also mirrored in our society today. Why does no one ever learn the lessons that the past has to offer?

Jill said...

Obo: there is. I'm it. You have no idea what my economic priorities would be. They certainly aren't statist. As I've said, the difference basically lies in ownership vs possession.

Derek P: "bit rich" - I don't particularly support uncontrolled immigration. I'm just asking why self-professed libertarians never seem to.

DerekP said...

Jill: I'm not at all interested in the 'perfect ideology', but are "self-professed libertarians" not to have locks on their houses? They'd be stopping free movement - the bastards!

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